Will O'the Wisp ([info]wotw) wrote,
@ 2007-09-26 19:37:00
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Circular Train Spoilers
I'm posting spoilers for my "circular train" problem. Don't
look if you don't want to see. I am absolutely certain of the
solution below. I've drawn the pictures; I've done the math;
everything works out.

The problem: A circular train 1000 meters in circumference sits
on a circular track (obviously also 1000 meters in circumference).
At some point it starts to move. I (who am stationary with respect
to the track) see the moving train as Lorentz contracted to, say,
500 meters. How does a 500 meter train stay on a 1000 meter track?

The solution: I certainly see the train as Lorentz contracted.
But I still see it as exactly 1000 meters long. Here's how that
can happen:

I say the train starts moving "all at once". But Jeeter, a passenger
on the moving train cannot agree. As far as he's concerned, the
front of his 10 meter passenger car started moving before the
rear----and in the process, the car got stretched out to 20 meters.

(If Jeeter looks across the circle at the cars that are going in the
opposite direction, he says that the rears of those cars started
moving before the fronts, so those cars got crunched. That's how
the whole train still sits on the track.)

Now: Jeeter says his car is 20 meters long. Due to the Lorentz
contraction, I see it as much shorter: exactly 10 meters long.
Which is exactly how long it looked before it started moving.

The Lorentz contractions exactly cancels the stretching due
to Jeeter's perception that different parts of the car started
moving at different times.

My mistake: I kept thinking that the train should look shorter
to me now than it looked to me before it started moving. But
that's not what the Lorentz contraction says. It says that the
train should look shorter to me than it looks to Jeeter.
And that can happen because Jeeter is feeling all stretched out.

The Underlying Fallacy: I assumed it made sense to say
that the train starts moving "all at once". But if one observer
says that, another can't. This, of course, is exactly the
fallacy that underlies all the SR "paradoxes".

The Context: I was thinking about the electric and magnetic
fields near a loop of wire carrying a current and couldn't figure
out why (in the frame of the wire) there is no electric field---
after all, the stream of electrons is Lorentz contracted, so they
should be denser than the protons, no? The train is the electrons
and the track is the wire.



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[info]gsh
2007-09-27 03:15 am UTC (link)
How did you determine that the Jeeter sees the rear moving first? I'll grant that is ok if the car is pushed from the back, but not if it were pulled from the front.

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[info]wotw
2007-09-27 12:51 pm UTC (link)
No, I said he sees the front moving first, not the rear.

To see this, consider the first few seconds of the train car's motion,
during which it's essentially going in a straight line. Here's the
spacetime diagram:

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[info]gsh
2007-09-27 02:31 pm UTC (link)
I meant the part where Jeeter looks across the circle, sorry for not
being as pedantic as necessary.

Part of the reason I don't deal with relativity much is cause the pedantry level needed to get a calculation done is high.

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[info]gsh
2007-09-27 04:16 pm UTC (link)
I am unhappy with your formulation, but don't want to say that it is incorrect yet.

You start with a train at rest, then have it instantly accelerate so its moving at v=0.5c. You say, and I don't object, that Jeeter sees the front and the back of the train start to move at different times.

Let us consider the train not undergoing a delta function acceleration, but accelerates at 0.01 g untill it reaches a velocity of 0.5c. From this gentle accleration, I don't think Jeeter will see the train be stretched out to
sqrt(4/3) in this situation, but it asmptotes to the sitation you describe above. This makes me uneasy.

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[info]wotw
2007-09-27 05:10 pm UTC (link)
Just round out the corners on the boldfaced worldlines and you'll have
a smooth acceleration---with the same result after the train gets up
to speed.

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[info]beowabbit
2007-09-27 05:47 am UTC (link)
I kept thinking that the train should look shorter
to me now than it looked to me before it started moving. But
that's not what the Lorentz contraction says. It says that the
train should look shorter to me than it looks to Jeeter.
Oh, cool!

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[info]frobzwiththingz
2007-09-27 02:50 pm UTC (link)
I just can't wrap my head around this explanation. This is my thought process; correct me where you see problems.

A circular train 1000 meters in circumference sits
on a circular track (obviously also 1000 meters in circumference).
At some point it starts to move.


Ok. We'll start here. You say the train "sits on a circular track". You also say that it is 1000 meters long. As is the track. I have to assume that by "sits" and "1000 meters long" what you are really saying is that they *are in the same inertial rest frame*. As are You, the Observer. Call this frame Y. Note that Jeeter, your passenger on the train, *is also in frame Y* before the train starts moving. So Jeeter would also claim that the
train is 1000 meters long when at rest.

Now the train moves. You are still in Frame Y. But you have created a new frame of reference for the train. I'll note that this frame is *not* an inertial frame, it is an accelerating frame, which immediately tells me that SR might not be good enough to deal with this situation, but i'll ignore that for the moment, simply noting that over a small region of track, it may look close enough to inertial to You, watching train cars stream by.

We'll call this frame J, because Jeeter is *also* in this frame. That's really what you are saying whan you say that Jeeter is a passenger on the train, right?

So, now jump down to your result:

Now: Jeeter says his car is 20 meters long. Due to the Lorentz
contraction, I see it as much shorter: exactly 10 meters long.
Which is exactly how long it looked before it started moving.

The Lorentz contractions exactly cancels the stretching due
to Jeeter's perception that different parts of the car started
moving at different times


Hold on here. Jeeter is in the *same* frame of reference as his train car! How can you use SR to possibly derive your result? SR itself is derived by making the (very counterintuitive, but experimentally verified) assumption that C is the same in all inertial frames of reference! Which in this case, means "Jeeter sees no change in the length of his train car".

You appear to have just used SR to disprove its own underlying axiom. That just cant be right.

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[info]wotw
2007-09-27 03:33 pm UTC (link)
First, we don't want to talk about the *train's* frame of reference; we
want to talk about *Jeeter's* frame of reference. Once the train has got
up to speed, Jeeter's car travels, over short periods of time, in
approximately a straight line with uniform velocity.

So: First the train accelerates up to speed. *Then* Jeeter is in
(approximately) uniform motion (over some short time interval where
he's traversing a nearly straight piece of track). We're looking from
his reference frame J.

How do things look to Jeeter? Reviewing recent past history, he says:
At time 0, the front of this car started moving forward. Then the next
bit started moving forward, then the next bit, etc. Finally, the rear of
the car started moving forward. Given that history, he *has* to feel
like his train car (and everything in it, including him) got stretched
out horizontally and now looks like a funhouse mirror version of itself.

The speed of light C is still the same in every reference frame. But the
train car, instead of SHRINKING in frame Y, GREW in frame J.

The train car has to look smaller in frame Y than in frame J. My mistake
was thinking that this means the train shrinks in frame Y. But it doesn't;
it stays a fixed length in frame Y and grows in frame J.

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[info]frobzwiththingz
2007-09-27 03:53 pm UTC (link)

The train car has to look smaller in frame Y than in frame J. My mistake
was thinking that this means the train shrinks in frame Y. But it doesn't;
it stays a fixed length in frame Y and grows in frame J.


But frame J, (to the small-arc-segment approximation we're agreeing to), *is still an inertial rest frame* to Jeeter, just as frame Y was. So you have Jeeter measuring the car (at rest, from his frame) as 10m long, and then later on, in Frame J, still a rest frame for Jeeter, as 20m long. If Jeeter had been asleep during the acceleration, what explanation could he use to explain why his train car is suddenly twice as long after he woke up? Assume he has no knowledge of You in Frame Y.

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[info]wotw
2007-09-27 05:09 pm UTC (link)
Jeeter is on a train that accelerated. Therefore forces were applied
to it (and to him). What Jeeter would say is: "Those forces were
applied to me unequally---the force on my front side was applied first,
and my front side started moving forward before my back side did! Now
I'm all misshapen!"

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[info]frobzwiththingz
2007-09-27 05:48 pm UTC (link)
But Jeeter is no longer in an acccelerating frame when he is saying this. He's in a rest frame. Your claim is that the effects of the acceleration while he was sleeping can somehow explain his different measurements of the car length before and after. Both of these measurements are taken from within an inertial frame J containing both the train car and Jeeter. OK, lets run with this for a bit:

Lets say, then, that the train then decelerates back to zero velocity, as measured by You in frame Y. Before this happens, Jeeter swaps seats so that he is facing the opposite direction. He then feels *exactly the same* accelerating forces in his frame as he did the first time, and sees the same effects w.r.t the front side and the back side of the car. When the acceleration stops, the train has zero velocity in Frame Y. You measure the cars to be 10 meters long again. Does Jeeter now measure his car to be *40* meters long? Or 10?

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[info]wotw
2007-09-27 06:21 pm UTC (link)
Jeeter is initially facing east. The east side of the train (and the
east side of Jeeter, i.e. his front) start moving eastward before the west
sides do. Eventually, the acceleration stops and he's moving along at a
constant velocity (or, in his view, staying still). He is now stretched
out, his stomach (as measured by him) stretches out twice as far as it used
to, and his car (as measured by him) is 20 meters long.

Now Jeeter turns around and faces west, if you like (though it doesn't
matter whether he turns around or not). The train begins to decelerate.
It's still moving eastward, but the east side of the train (and of
Jeeter) decelerate before the west sides do. So his west side is still
moving at a pretty good clip after his east side has slowed down a lot.
This squashes him. By the time the train stops, he's squashed back to
his original shape and the train car measures 10 meters.

Like so:




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[info]frobzwiththingz
2007-09-27 07:18 pm UTC (link)
a few questions for you, based on this diagram.

1) What force allows for Jeeters train car to maintain it's stretched out shape in the second rest frame? [Jeeter knows it used to be half it's size in the previous rest frame]
1a) How is Jeeter managing to *get* a measurement of 2x anyway? Arent all of his measuring instruments in his frame too, also having been stretched out to 2x?


2) The train car is being accelerated. So is Jeeter. Somehow. You have *arbitrarily* chosen to apply the accelerating force from one side of the train, and the same side for both acceleration and deceleration. Why? Certainly it makes your diagram work out. But what logic are you using to deduce that a pulling force on the front of the car actually makes the car stretch the way you say? Can you rigorously define it for me? Because i am having difficulty seeing any model that wouldnt allow me to decelerate the train *by pulling from the other end*, which should *continue to stretch the train out* such that Jeeter now has a 40 meter car from his vantage point when done. [wherein i find the contradiction to the idea that Jeeter sees any length change at all]

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[info]wotw
2007-09-27 08:51 pm UTC (link)
1) Jeeter's train car, like any physical object, can be permanently
altered by the application of a force. That's why vases stay broken even
after you stop hitting them with hammers. If you want to inquire very
closely into what holds the train car together, you're going to get into
delicate questions at the atomic level that special relativity does not
address. Indeed, it's perfectly possible that the force of the acceleration
causes the train car to rip to shreds; this analysis assumes it manages to
stay together. Whatever force allowed it to survive the acceleration is
what's still holding it together now.

1a) Jeeter gets a measurement of 2x by bouncing a beam of light from one
end of the train car to the other and measuring how long it takes to travel
(using, of course, clocks that are traveling with him). [This question
bothered me at first too.]

2. The decision to apply force first on the forward side of the train is
not arbitrary. It is forced by the Lorentz transformation (as captured in
the spacetime diagram). And the same mathematics (or geometry) leaves you
no choice about where the *de*celeration starts.

The general rule is that if I think two events are simultaneous, then
someone traveling eastward has to think that the easternmore event occurs
first.

If we wait till Jeeter has gone halfway around the circle until we
decelerate, then the deceleration starts on the west side...but that's
okay---he still gets crushed, because he's traveling west.

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[info]frobzwiththingz
2007-09-27 10:34 pm UTC (link)
Indeed, it's perfectly possible that the force of the acceleration
causes the train car to rip to shreds


This seems really unlikely to me. A speed of sqrt(3)/2 C == .866 C is required for a lorentz contraction factor of 2. This is accompanied by a relativistic mass increase of the same factor of 2. So if you said "the
train accelerates at X m/s^2, it would only take 2 times the force to continue that acceleration at .866 C than when we started from zero. This
is hardly enough to compete with nuclear forces.

1a) Jeeter gets a measurement of 2x by bouncing a beam of light from oneend of the train car to the other and measuring how long it takes to travel...

Right. Back to first principles. But this implies [given Jeeters previous knowledge of the length of the train car at rest in frame Y], that without any measurement of the acceleration which took place before, Jeeter can wake up, get a measurement of the car length, and given this measurement, Jeeter can then *calculate his speed relative to the observer You in Frame Y* [2x orig impies .866c relative speed], without *any* external references! How can this be?

It is forced by the Lorentz transformation (as captured in the spacetime diagram)
Why is it Jeeter who sees the front-of-train-starts-moving and back-of-train-starts-moving events as not simultaneous? Could it not be that Jeeter sees them as simultaneous, and You in Frame Y see them as out of sync? I think your diagram has this assumption built into it.

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[info]wotw
2007-09-27 11:09 pm UTC (link)
Jeeter can wake up, get a measurement of the car length, and given
this measurement, Jeeter can then *calculate his speed relative to the
observer You in Frame Y* [2x orig impies .866c relative speed], without
*any* external references! How can this be?


It cannot be, and therefore he cannot do it. He needs an extra bit of
information, namely he needs to know that to the observer in frame Y
the accelerations of the front and back ends of the car appeared
simultaneous. He cannot know this without either a) observing the
acceleration or b) receiving information from the observer in frame Y.
Nice try, though! :)


Why is it Jeeter who sees the front-of-train-starts-moving and back-of-
train-starts-moving events as not simultaneous? Could it not be that Jeeter
sees them as simultaneous, and You in Frame Y see them as out of sync?


Oh, absolutely. But the original assumption was that at some point,
the observer in frame Y sees the entire train start to move. You are
pointing out that I could have made a different assumption. I agree
that in that case, we'd face a different problem with a different solution.

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[info]frobzwiththingz
2007-09-28 12:20 am UTC (link)
It's not clear to me [will think about this some more with pencil-in-hand], that Jeeter is actually *using* that extra bit of information in the above calculation. I'll need to stew over this for a bit.

In the meantime, doesn't that just leave us with the same original objection I had, just from Jeeters point of view in Frame J? Jeeter now measures his train cars at twice their initial length, while the track, still at rest in Frame Y, still has it's original length. What's Jeeters explanation for how the train and track still match up?

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[info]wotw
2007-09-28 12:28 am UTC (link)
Jeeter says his car (and other cars near it) have stretched. But when
he looks across the circle, he sees cars facing (and traveling) the
opposite direction. *Those* cars started moving in back before they
started moving in front, and they got crunched. Some cars are stretched;
others are crunched, and between them they still exactly fill the track.
And yes, I've actually checked this; it's not just a guess.

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[info]points
2007-09-27 03:33 pm UTC (link)
Hm.

"after all, the stream of electrons is Lorentz contracted, so they
should be denser than the protons, no?"

Well, the electrons are moving on the order of millions of meters per second, but, if memory serves, mostly randomly with a drift velocity on the order of only millimeters per second in accordance with Ohm's law in the direction of the voltage potential.

The signal front can travel near the speed of light, but the electrons themselves do not.

(Drift velocity for 3 amps in a 1mm copper wire is only 0.00028 m/s.)

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[info]wotw
2007-09-27 03:36 pm UTC (link)
Nevertheless, they're moving fast enough for the Lorentz contraction to
create a magnetic field, which is the same thing as an electric field in
the rest frame of the electrons. So if this is your argument, you've
got to deny the existence of magnetism.

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